NEWSNIGHT
w/ AARON BROWN
Aired June 3, 2003 - 22:00 ET
We are joined now by someone who understands perhaps better than most
the spot Ms. Stewart finds herself in. Foster Winans has been there himself
although he had a different checkbook at the time than Ms. Stewart seems
to have.
Former writer for "The Wall Street Journal"'s "Heard it
on the Street" column, spent nine months in a minimum security prison
after being convicted on insider trading charges. He's also the author
of a number of books including one called "Trading Secrets."
Good to see you again.
FOSTER WINANS, AUTHOR, "TRADING SECRETS"
BROWN: Just let's establish your position here. If her name were Jane
Johnson and not Martha Stewart, rich, well-known, all of that, would this
be going on at all?
WINANS: Absolutely not. This is a show trial, or if it's going to be a
trial, it's going to be a show trial.
BROWN: Do you think it matters by the way that she's a high-profile Democrat?
WINANS: I have no idea. I don't think politics has anything to do with
it. I really don't.
BROWN: OK. There is that out there. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) think they want to
get somebody on an insider trading charge that people know about and then
they can say look see what we have done?
WINANS: Well my case was very similar in that the money that was involved
and what happened was relatively minor compared to the enormous frauds
that have taken place on Wall Street.
Martha Stewart was an easy target. If you remember Congressman Green was
dragging her -- trying to drag her in front of a subcommittee in the House.
What did Martha Stewart know about Enron and Andersen and all of that?
So very similar situation. .
BROWN: You said to us earlier that you thought when this all gets done
that it may not be insider trading at all?
WINANS: Insider trading is very difficult to prosecute because there usually
is no paper trail. Somebody doesn't write down "I'm giving you insider
information." It's usually a coded message.
But obstruction of justice is really easy. That is, in fact, a worse crime
in the eyes of prosecutors and judges. If Martha Stewart had come forward
in the beginning and said look, I made a mistake, I'm going to pay you
back lots of money, I will work in a soup kitchen, I'm going to do this,
that and the other, she would have been fine. All she had to do was shred
one document and she suddenly is looking at a five-year sentence.
BROWN: Do you think she will do time by the way?
WINANS: Actually, I do think she will do a little bit of time. Obstruction
of justice is a particularly nasty charge. It's fairly easy to prosecute.
and in this case, it looks like the U.S. attorney's office refused to
do a deal with her. And when they refuse to do a deal, it means they probably
have exactly what they need to win a conviction.
BROWN: At this stage -- go back now 15 years or so when you were in the
center of this. At this stage when you know they're coming, they haven't
quite come yet, but you know they're coming, how are you sleeping? What's
going on in your life? How do you think she's doing today?
WINANS: Well, she's probably not going to work every day. Especially after
that made for TV movie was on the air. I don't think she showed up to
the office the next morning.
But when I think about Martha Stewart, I actually have a lot of sympathy
for her even though she obviously did something that was wrong. She's
kind of ruined. I see her as sort of ruined. Her reputation has been taken
away from her. I don't see a good outcome for her company. I see a --
I see a conviction or a plea. I see a little bit of jail time.
And I think it's a tragedy for women in business. I think that Martha
Stewart's case has a sort of subliminal effect on the opportunities of
women in business, the same as Jayson Blair's might have on young African-American
journalists.
BROWN: Do you really -- come on.
WINANS: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... there are in American business today, arguably perhaps not
as many as there should be. But there are lots of women who have high-profile
jobs, certainly a few as high profile as Ms. Stewart. But you think that
women generally will be hurt by her stock deal, whatever she did or didn't
do?
WINANS: I think that it's very difficult for women to succeed in a lot
of different areas in our culture because of lots of different glass ceilings.
And I think when a very visible well-known woman who did it on her own
and mostly by herself fails, it hurts all women.
I'm not saying that that's a major issue in this case. It's just an observation.
BROWN: But you have some sympathy for her? Do you think they should let
her walk?
WINANS: Well, I don't think she should go to jail. My sentence for Martha
Stewart would be an orange jump suit that says "I trashed my company
and all I got was this lousy jump suit." And have her work in a soup
kitchen.
BROWN: Going back about to where we began, which is if she were nobody,
would they go after her at all. If she broke the law, if that's in fact
what happened, whether her name is Martha Stewart or mud, why not go after
her? Why make the argument they shouldn't go after her?
WINANS: I am not saying they shouldn't go after her. If I I were looking
at this fairly I would say, let's make a deal. Let's give her a little
bit of dignity. Look, this woman has been vilified -- it's not a surprise,
by the way, that this case didn't come out during the Iraq war, for example,
when it wouldn't have been noticed. It's all about demonstrating that
the cop is on the beat and Martha Stewart is the flavor of the month.
BROWN: It's nice to see you. The program is full of cynicism tonight,
though, I must say. Thank you.
WINANS: So is the world.
BROWN: I guess so. We all had our full dose of cynicism today. It's nice
to have you with us again.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT the long-awaited Hillary Clinton book is out. I rest
my case. She describes her husband's admission of his relationship with
a certain intern. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.